Recording midi notes

[decrepitude]

Is it possible to record midi note and velocity info into one of the sequencer modules? Can it be done on the fly?

[jue]

Hello,

the recording of MIDI into the Seqs is not possible.
Wether the notes nor the velocity.

But would be nice to have! ;)

best
jue

[jim]

Is it possible to record midi note and velocity info into one of the sequencer modules? Can it be done on the fly?

Not yet, I'm working on some ideas for implementing that later on.

Cheers,
Jim

[decrepitude]

I think it's very important. It's almost a deal breaker for me, because I like to perform/improvise parts live and record the midi in real time.

[jim]

Can you tell me more about your workflow? It will both help me determine exactly what features you're looking for, and I may be able to offer some workarounds.

Cheers,
Jim

[sonomute]

Yes, please! We DO need midi input:)

[VicDiesel]

It's almost a deal breaker for me,

Colour me surprised. A sequencer that is in version 2 without midi input?

I was hoping that I could use this as a midi sketch pad. Does anyone have a recommendation for a simple application that can record and manipulate midi?

Intended workflow: I stick a keyboard into my laptop, switch on the click track, and then just play.

Victor.

[jim]

Colour me surprised. A sequencer that is in version 2 without midi input?

I was hoping that I could use this as a midi sketch pad. Does anyone have a recommendation for a simple application that can record and manipulate midi?

Intended workflow: I stick a keyboard into my laptop, switch on the click track, and then just play.

At $199, Logic 8 Express is pretty hard to beat.

Numerology is not a MIDI Sequencer; it is a modular step & pattern sequencer. It can generate and process MIDI and it can be controlled via MIDI, but it has no facilities for recording, storing, editing or playing back MIDI. It would certainly be nice if it did those things, and they may be added later, but those functions are really not what Numerology 2 is about.

The goal of Numerology is to allow you think of music composition in terms that have nothing to do with playing a keyboard -- indeed, its most interesting features are about creating things you cannot play with a keyboard. The ideas that Numerology implements come from the early Moog & Buchla sequencers : customizable machines for making music in a CV-based modular synthesis environment. Buchla doesn't even call his current sequencing module a "sequencer", he calls it an "arbitrary function generator".

Numerology starts with those ideas and extends them immensely so that you can keep the benefits of step sequencing (immediacy, interactivity) without the limitations (fixed compositional parameters). The ideas that are at the center of most MIDI sequencers (Logic, DP, Cubase, et. al) come from multi-track studio tape recorders : record something, play it back, edit it. Both are completely valid, useful ways of making music. DAW functionality is extremely well represented in the market, but IMHO, modular step sequencing is not.

I do see a use for recording and playing back MIDI in Numerology in the future, and certainly using MIDI to control playback of Numerology's sequences is already an important part of what it offers. But I specifically decided a while back to hold off on any sort of "MIDI recording" functions in Numerology 2 for several reasons:

- Other apps already do that very well, there's no point in duplicating what they offer, particularly when most customers already have such an app.

- Implementation of any feature involves cost: each and every one, no matter how small, takes time to implement, test and maintain. In other words, every feature comes at the cost of some other feature. Adding any sort of piano-roll anything to N2, which is a pretty big feature, would have either meant greatly extending what has already been an over-long development cycle, or dropping features that are intrinsic to what Numerology is really about. Much better to focus on and enhance what makes Numerology unique and interesting, rather than water things down by trying to implementing everything for everyone.

- I have several *very* radical ideas on how I might implement MIDI recording and playback in a way that would follow Numerology's methodology, and those ideas are still evolving. I don't plan to start writing any code in that area until those ideas have stabilized, I feel like the existing functional areas of Numerology are fully realized, and I have a solid block of time to concentrate on them.

So again, if you're looking to record MIDI from a keyboard, at least for now, you'll have to look somewhere else. Numerology 2 is about allowing you to easily create patterns that produce interesting results you cannot readily attain elsewhere. To see this in action, watch the videos, especially #2 and #3 (http://www.five12.com/t.html), or look at the "Airport Voices" project in the Examples folder. It abstracts the process of composition, allowing you to explore many, many interesting techniques -- things that can be a great compliment to more standard approaches, like playing instruments, or creative remixing.

And BTW, I have not forgotten about the need to program a sequencer in 'real time' from a MIDI keyboard, which is really quite different from midi recording in general -- as that is a translation from the realm of MIDI into a CV-based step sequencer rather than a MIDI recording function. It is on the feature queue and will get some attention when its time comes.

Best,
Jim

[sonomute]

Numerology is very interesting piece of software, allowing generate and manipulate data in hundreds of different ways, it is very complex and unusual for the market, giving us chance to have different approach to music making...
but still, i`d like to generate data based on something i control, and then manipulate results...it is so natural and simple just to take midi-keyboard, play some notes, find interesting melody or whatever, and then, develop it to the more complex thing using Numerology modules and algorithms...

For now, i`m not controlling any single thing, sometimes i`m getting interesting results just using mouse of course or randomizing function but most of the time it is sounds like shit:))) There is no point to put some random notes to step-sequencer and then process it with some other randomizing sequencers, it still will be random data, even if it will be very complex setup.

I bought Num few weeks ago and little by little i`m giving it up... there are a lot of advanced functions but absence of some basic ones...

I understand your position but nobody will make fun of you if Numerology will have normal midi recording,or, even better, midi programming(i mean programming modules from external midi controllers function). I think that actually it will only do some good for you and others, more people will be able to use it, not only such a mad scientists as you, Jim ;)

Anyway, thank you for your work, i hope my 1 hundred bucks will do you some good, and i will go back to my old tools for now i think...

[sonomute]

but what a pity...
it is a single little step to numerology to become very good composition and improvisation tool ...

it is just not everybody able to write notation, and to compose something inside of their head and then put it on paper or to poly-note:)))

If i thinking about Numerology as something like modern way of making serial composition like Webern music but electronic, i`m not really specialist in this, but i know that first step is to choose serie of notes, and then implement some operations to that serie...
This is what i`m doing in my stuff all the time, before it was sampled material, now i started to work with synths...

I was too fast in my conclusions in previous post, of course i will not give up Numerology, i love it, and it is my first piece of software ever bought(you see how much i like it! :)))

[sonomute]

may be i will just start to write something like minimal tekno...:))))

[shamburglar]

I think it would be silly and redundant to invest time into making a traditional midi sequencer in numerology... it just isn't conducive to that kind of workflow and the polynote sequencer is really about as far as it needs to go for numerology philosophy... however I have this crazy/half baked idea for a module that I think could be very powerful...

a midi player module... one thats only purpose is to generate/extract various types of data from midi files and then be routed into numerology... you could in effect dramatically change the output of your projects by loading different midi files into the the "midi player module" and using the data to modulate and feed parameters... intervals being the most obvious choice but it could go so far beyond that!

[sonomute]

agree, no need to make it traditional, just add some midi input to step programming, veeery little tiny midi input function :)))) that`s it!

[VicDiesel]

The goal of Numerology is ....

Thanks for the elaborate reply. There are some interesting ideas there, and I need to find time to experiment a bit with Numerology.

As far as light weight midi sequencers go, I just found Intuem, which seems to fit the bill.

Now I'm going to watch those videos you mentioned.

Victor.

[ryanmca]

people seem to think that one tool will do it all. it is for this reason that things like cubase are such a headache for people, and i have not met anyone in the industry that uses every single feature in it, but rather different groups of people that use different functions within it. i think the most interesting music comes from the guys that think to use something in an out-of-the-ordinary way, kinda a "what will happen if i plug this into this" way of thinking. strategies like these can still hold true for sequencers and daws, and i personally like to pick the perfect tool for each job. for example, i do most of my composing in ableton live, and i like programming breaks and complex sampling in Renoise (a tracker), and i like to mix in Cubase, and now recently i have found Numerology which fits a little niche part of my artistic creativity. it is a fantastic little program, but it will never compete with cubase as far as mixing capability. i will never be able to dj or play live with it as well as i can with ableton. likewise, it will never be as good of a midi sequencer as many other pieces of software are, but that's ok, because what it does, it does really well. i'm glad Jim has decided to focus on something that not many other people have done in software, and i'm glad that he hasn't given in to the mainstream demand and put something in like a midi sequencer, because honestly the only people it would please would numerology users that would get the added convenience. i doubt any user of any other midi sequencer would come to Numerology for it's midi sequencer, when there is competition out there that has spent years and years developing their sequencers. so guys, consider the idea of being open to using more than one piece of software for all aspects of composition, production, etc. because i can tell you from experience that you will make it much easier on yourselves just using the right tool for each task, instead of getting some piece of garbage all-in-one tool that does a mediocre job at each task.

[amsonx]

agree, no need to make it traditional, just add some midi input to step programming, veeery little tiny midi input function :)))) that`s it!

For this task i use Bidule as Au in numerology to record midi note and even midi cc generate from lfo or modulation sequencer etc.

[jue]

Hello,

MIDI input for step programming would be great.
Beside this I like to see also a copy and paste function inside of the sequencers.
In the moment I am using a lot of 64/128 step Seqs from were I select parts by modulation of start/end steps.
Setting all by moving the mouse is a little time consuming.
If we got MIDI input it would be possible to prepare my pitches in Cubase by recording, copy and Paste or even painting with the pencil and then just play them to numerology and record them there.

In MonoNote, PolyNote and MatrixSeq pitch and velocity should be recorded step by step
in IntervalSeq the pitch should be recorded step by step
in VelocitySeq the velocity should be recorded step by step

In all this cases recording means to me:
First MIDI event to first step in Seq
second Midi event to the second step in Seq
and so on.
There should be a selection switch were this behavier could be inverted to this:
First MIDI event to last step in Seq
second Midi event to the second last step in Seq
and so on.
And the steps should go ahead if you put in more MIDI events than steps are in the sequence.
This means shifting forward or backward belonging to the setting of the selection switch mentioned before.
First in first out if to many are comming.

best
jue

[sbaishya]

a midi player module... one thats only purpose is to generate/extract various types of data from midi files and then be routed into numerology... you could in effect dramatically change the output of your projects by loading different midi files into the the "midi player module" and using the data to modulate and feed parameters... intervals being the most obvious choice but it could go so far beyond that!

I've been thinking about exactly the same thing. I have been playing with other tools for MIDI generation, for example a modified version of this (http://vimeo.com/1824904). I am happy to capture the output using something other than Numerology, but it would be great if Numerology could play back the resultant MIDI file.

[pix]

hi all!

I wanted to add my opinion on this. I've been considering buying numerology for a long time now. V1 had the lack of rewire which is a great addition with this v2. The other bit that is stopping me from purchasing it now is the total mouse dependence of the program. I think the software is close to perfection now in terms of functions and flexibility but I think it's still missing on the functional side.

In terms of midi recording (notes and CCs) one could have a "write" button on each sequencer. When activated any midi note input would be recorded at that point in time. If multiple notes were triggered during a step the last one would stay.

There could be a master CC# as well (MW #1 maybe). This would be used to input data for all other types of seq. With the sequencer running, and pressing write, tweaking this CC would print the value to the step. this would make it super easy to add stuff on the fly.

Important thing is that a step where no input was made should keep unmodified. Maybe there could be two options (replace and overdub or something like that)

Rec mode could have a latch mode and a one shot mode where recording

Another different way to create better control imo, would be to add a system of remote seq selection. Have a way to scroll through the different seq with midi control. then on that highlighted seq have a system of midi control that would be the same for all seqs. This way you could have a master CC# assignment for stuff like last step, octave, play, "write" etc that would control the highlighted seq. this would be extremely intuitive. with a knob you'd scroll through the seqs, and with the same set of knobs you'd make changes on that seq. having the same knobs controlling the same parameters on every seq would make learning this so much easier which wold allow for great expressiveness with time.

now what you could add to this system is a set of 16CC#s that would always control the 16 step values. So with the same knobs you'd control the parameters of the highlighted seq.

This kind of control would make it ideal to control numerology without almost touching the mouse. i don't know how hard to implement this would be but I can imagine it being an effective way to control numerology in an expressive way.

To record on the fly, you'd use the seq scroll knob to select what seq you'd want to change,

in here you could tweak the 16 master CC# to input values

or you could press press the master "write" button to enable write - in here you could add the value by note input (maybe use 16 notes only), or by tweaking the master input knob (MW CC#1)

as soon as you'd scroll out of that highlighted seq, write mode would be automatically turned off and you'd be set to change another seq on the fly.

This is just an idea, but if numerology had such a functionality it'd probably become by master sequencer in no time.

the main idea is to have the same set controls for the common parameters in all seqs and then have an easy way to scroll between them.

what do guys think?

[bogeyeater]

i dunno. i've read these arguments and even thought them myself to start with. midi recording, control etc.

but N2 *for me* is all about fab fractal structures, beautiful morphing kalidescopic movements that couldn't be caught with linear sequencing. it's got naff all to do with jamming or 'feeling it'. it's got everything to do with figured out how to cross patch sequencer x to generator y, what type of message affects what aspect of the sound, and the skilful application of randomness.

everything else is gravy. logic does it already.

[pix]

hmm, I think you miss the point. We don't want to write linearly. just to have a less mouse driven/eyes on the screen workflow.

wouldn't it be better to control the 16 step values with a row of 16 knobs instead of mouse clicking on all of them?

[bogeyeater]

wouldn't it be better to control the 16 step values with a row of 16 knobs instead of mouse clicking on all of them?

not neccessarily. if something is feeling static in N2 i'll look to another method to create movement, such as multiple interval seq's or mod gens. if i set those right i can stand off the machines and the structure takes on a life of it's own. thus realtime control and expression in N2 is not a huge priority ....*FOR ME*

[sonomute]

Nobody saying that he want this one to be like logic, why are you still keeping to repeat this? It is just intuitive way for me for example to input some kind of musical idea and then to develop it with help of Num, i prefer to play some notes on my midi keyboard, record it step by step then to step sequencer, and then start to work with it and mutate it to something complex and beautiful:)
Right now i have only one choice, mouse input, which is not really musical and intuitive for me, and nobody asking you to use numerology as Logic, and anyway, i even don`t have logic, i don`t need it:)

[sonomute]

I think it is just the name of the thread..."midi-recording" sounds like something complicated, arranging, automating and al that...

It is better to talk about "using midi-controllers for programming step-sequencer modules like mononote,polynote etc." :)

I think everybody will agree that THIS is useful feature,or i`m wrong?

[bogeyeater]

i agree sono. it would be a useful feature.

i'm just new at N and having a lot of fun with it. i haven't got to it's limitations yet, just my own (as usual)

[kaioconnell]

I agree as well.

[jim]

An interesting discussion.... ;)

What I'm starting to see is a continuum of programming techniques, that I think I can roughly describe as four groups:

- Conceptual Composition : Patterns built up from ideas, such as the one shown in the 2nd Techniques video. Here MIDI interaction is minimal, the real work happens in your head, and entry is primarily by mousing around.

- Interactive Composition : Here you use MIDI control over existing patterns to modify them as they run, both via ParamMod, and via MIDI control over various parameters. This includes manual assignment of MIDI knobs/faders to pitch sliders and other sequencer params.

- Semi-Realtime Composition : Entry of notes into a sequence from a MIDI keyboard -- either in a step-by-step function, or by 'recording' them as the sequence plays, without modifying the sequencer's timing.

- Realtime Composition : recording of all MIDI events (notes, CC, etc) in realtime. This of course also implies MIDI playback, MIDI import/export, etc.

What I find helpful about this categorization is that it helps me group feature requests so that I can better schedule feature implementation. Numerology already covers the first two groups very well (though, of course, there is always room for refinement), the third group could be covered with a few carefully chosen new features. The fourth, as I've mentioned before, is quite a bit more work, and is well represented by existing software. What I'm seeing on the list is a strong demand for coverage in the 3rd group, and some interest in the 4th. I see it as a natural progression : steady incorporation of features that match the 3rd group, while continuing to make notes and preparations to enter the 4th.

Cheers,
Jim

[jue]

hello,

You call it Semi-Realtime Composition,
for me it would help to handle all of my long Seqs 32 to 128 steps.
If the step by step input is possible my idea is to prepare my sequences in a normal program (Nuendo/Cubase/Logic or what every you like) by using their MIDI editors with all the cut,copy and past..... after, finsh just play it from there into the CV Seq in numerology and go!
Several 128 step Seqs with light differend changes are a paint just with the mouse to set up.
The other side would be that each composer has a lot of projects on his DAW with MIDI notes in it waiting for the next round off composition.
I still have the most of my compositions from the old ATARI 1040 times in cubase projects.
A little cut here and there would make his way to Numerology just to have a try, if this kind of stepinput would be possible.

best
jue

[Graeme]

Hi, I'm a new Numerology user/owner; I recently got my first Mac and this was the #1 software that had been making me jealous over in Windows-land :)...

I've only spent a couple of short sessions with Numerology, but I do have plenty of experience with other sequencing methods (Ableton,Cubase,MPC,machinedrum,puredata...)

So, I'd like to add my vote to this--

Semi-Realtime Composition is a feature I would _really_ appreciate.

The idea is not to change the essence of Numerology's sequencing concept (which is certainly great as-is), rather to help us in 2 ways:
-entering step values in a way that is more ergonomic than mousing
-for us non-musical-geniuses, sometime 'happy accidents' are good, but also it's very efficient to be able to just 'poke around' the keyboard a bit to find the right note-- just to help get it out of our heads into the program

One style that I think would be very handy:
Hold down a certain 'step select' button to select a given step, then press the key for the note(s) you want. Perhaps even with gate time or velocity optionally recorded. The 'step select' buttons could be external midi buttons on a controller, or perhaps also the computer-keyboard keys...
(I think the Elektron monomachine has a similar entry-mode to this?)
And, 'next step'/'previous step' entry buttons would also be good.

I can really see such note entry technique fitting into Numerology in a satisfying way.

...
Personally, I would also enjoy a more 'realtime' entry method (ie with sequencer running), but the above 'steptime' technique is the first thing I'd choose.

I must immediately mention that I haven't had a chance to even explore to what extent these techniques may already be possible, so forgive me if some of this exists....

cheers
Graeme
(new Numerology user/owner here, hi everyone!)

[jim]

My latest thoughts are to have a 'cursor' -- the current step for entering notes, which would be separate from the current playing step, and then allow you to set the cursor step, with various options for 'programming' it (midi note, CC, or the computer keyboard). This would be separate from a 'recording' mode, in which incoming MIDI would be mapped to the current step, with some timing adjustments to handle quantizing of incoming rhythms to the sequencer rate.

Cheers,
Jim

[Graeme]

Those ideas sound like they would be a great fit for me :).

[jue]

Hello,

Please have a look here:

http://five12.net/showthread.php?p=962#post962

I puted it to the tips and tricks section

best
jue

[sonomute]

Nice workaround, but i still hope that there will be easier way to do this, and soon...:)

Thanx!

[jim]

On the list for 2.1 ...

Jim

[sonomute]

Now, after finding out about faderbox for storing synth state with preset and morphing sound, i'm waiting only one last thing to start really use Numerology...guess what? :)

Jim, i hope 2.1 will include this feature? Looks like quite a few people waiting for it...

Can we move this topic to requests somehow? Sorry, but i just need it so bad, and here it looks like very easy to forget about it...

Thank you!

[jim]

Don't worry, I haven't forgotten about it....

Cheers,
Jim

[stevenclements]

I like to step record into my x0xb0x... and love those tasty acid lines...

It would be a joy to be able to dump these patterns into Numerology and then use them as patterns to drive synths... I can of course do this in hardware but the more I'm playing with Numerology the more I would love that functionality.

Steve :)

[jim]

I like to step record into my x0xb0x... and love those tasty acid lines...

It would be a joy to be able to dump these patterns into Numerology and then use them as patterns to drive synths... I can of course do this in hardware but the more I'm playing with Numerology the more I would love that functionality.


MIDI input, output & recording are on the N3 list. However, you can do some recording tricks now, and I think since the x0xb0x loops patterns with a fixed rate, you can probably rig something to recording those patterns into the MonoNote pretty easily....

Cheers,
Jim

[TWINSTATES]

For this task i use Bidule as Au in numerology to record midi note and even midi cc generate from lfo or modulation sequencer etc.

Could I use bidule at the end of a stack somehow to record midi data? Like a midi export function?

I guess routing from one stack to another as you talk about would work,

That might be an interesting idea.

I am guessing you can have it playing back midi data in numerology then use the modues to manipulate that data as well, right?

Thanks!

[deva]

I'm glad to hear that midi input of some sort will be in N3. It has always been frustrating with the various forms of software step sequencers I have had that it always requires to input by mouse. Even where there are complex controls to adjust timing to add groove, change note length etc.

I am still fairly new to Numerology but I find myself recording some midi playing in Live then painstakingly recreating the melody, timing etc in the mono or poly note module. So I sure wish I could record or import midi into numerology... Not to make it a sequencer like other DAWs but because I have spent years learning how to efficiently input midi data via music keyboard (playing keyboard). It is far more efficient than the mouse!!