Grid Controllers : call for suggestions

[jim]

Novation just announced a new monome-style grid controller:

http://us.novationmusic.com/launchpad/

http://createdigitalmusic.com/2009/10/01/first-hands-on-novations-new-199-launchpad-grid-controller-for-ableton-live/#more-7726

In addition to working on a general-purpose control option for knob and fader based controllers, I've been toying around with some ideas of how to also incorporate grid controllers of this sort. The most obvious choice is to set them up for triggering presets as in the mixer view. Other options include a roland-style drum-grid option, or a general note trigger. I'm curious to hear how you all could see using such a controller with Numerology.

Cheers,
Jim

[gvh]

Novation just announced a new monome-style grid controller:

http://us.novationmusic.com/launchpad/

http://createdigitalmusic.com/2009/10/01/first-hands-on-novations-new-199-launchpad-grid-controller-for-ableton-live/#more-7726

In addition to working on a general-purpose control option for knob and fader based controllers, I've been toying around with some ideas of how to also incorporate grid controllers of this sort. The most obvious choice is to set them up for triggering presets as in the mixer view. Other options include a roland-style drum-grid option, or a general note trigger. I'm curious to hear how you all could see using such a controller with Numerology.

Cheers,
Jim

That's funny...I came here today specifically to mention the Launchpad and see what you may think about supporting grid controllers in Numerology. :-)

I would be thrilled to see even the most basic thing: triggering presets, as you suggest. That would minimize the need to use Live as a "container" for Numerology presets if one wanted to use a grid controller (which I do).

I'm not sure what you have in mind for a "general note trigger" but being able to use a grid controller as a physical "map" for MonoNote and Chordseq would be awesome. The Launchpad is a bit limited compared to the larger versions of the Monome (due to the smaller number of pads) but using it for basic control of sequence parameters (and visual feedback of the sequence) would be very cool. It would allow for more fluid real-time experimentation with sequences than the mouse does.

Gordon

[gvh]

Oh, and when you're done with that could you add support for point-and-click upload of presets from Numerology into my Schrittmacher? j/k! ;)

[xherv]

I really feel like there's a couple fundamental problem in the way software I've seen handles hardware controllers. First is the "engage MIDI learn; click UI element; twiddle this knob; disengage MIDI learn", but this is a really painful, error-prone, inflexible workflow. Second, compounding this IMHO stupid way of setting up mappings, is no software allows central management of hardware controllers. This is just software I've seen, so maybe I'm missing something /shrug. I really want to use a mouse to centrally manage / organize all hardware controller -> DAW mapping.

My lightbulb idea is some kind of software cell-based controller grid. Each cell with a menu-and-mouse-driven configurable output (multiple menus even since there's a hierarchical structure here, like stack:module: parameter). This would just be an intermediate abstraction step between hardware controller -[maps to]-> DAW / module / plug-in functions, making it hardware -[maps to]-> grid -[maps to]-> function. Central management with a mouse, per project file, with some basic tools for auto-filling either the input triggers or outputs of a column/row/grid/sub-grid, importing / exporting settings from a project.

As it comes to presets, the work-in-progress features look really cool. I really feel the more functionality here the better - things like increment/decrement through preset list, auto-inc through preset list (maybe a play x times, x set per-preset), jump to .. and jump back after it's done, etc. Duplicate via hardware controller would be nice, and I guess reordering as well. Also being able to edit a preset that's not active without the UI jumping to the currently playing preset is something I've run up against a few times. Can't wait to see what's cooking in this area :D

[jim]

You're definitely right about the traditional ctl-click to learn a param -- it is fine for basic setups, but doesn't scale for large systems. I'm working on a protocol for the pro version of Numerology that I originally called "midi remote", but am now just calling it "numerology remote" as it will also incorporate OSC. The idea is to provide what I call "deep hardware integration" without using custom hardware. The original hardware target is anything with at least 12 knobs or sliders, but now that the popularity of grid controllers is growing, I am working on extending my "remote" ideas to those as well. The tricky part is determining things like "how do you control the mononote with an 8x8 grid?" ;)

Cheers,
Jim

[jim]

I'm not sure what you have in mind for a "general note trigger" but being able to use a grid controller as a physical "map" for MonoNote and Chordseq would be awesome.

The idea for the note trigger is to have a "page" or "mode" where all buttons are setup to trigger notes, either as a big drum kit, or a multi-octave pitched keyboard (hmmm, alternate keyboard layouts, hmmm....)....

I've got a few notes on how to map the grid to the MonoNote, but I'd like to hear some other ideas before posting mine. The ChordSeq I haven't approached yet, though it does seem obvious that in one mode, columns could map to steps and rows could map to scale degrees.

Jim

[jim]

Moderator Note: I moved the postings on Tone Space and Harmony Navigator to the Feature Requests forum:

http://www.five12.com/vbForum/showthread.php?t=610

Cheers,
Jim

[amsonx]

I've just orderda Launchpad stimulate by this article

http://createdigitalmusic.com/2009/11/02/novation-releases-all-midi-details-for-launchpad/#more-8180


i cant wait to try the LP with Numerology :D

[shamburglar]

yeah me too... I'm seriously considering getting one and I have the APC... the midi implementation is horrendous on the APC... whereas it seems that the launchpad is more open to use outside of Ableton... still gotta figure out how to get Numerology to make button states and that type of stuff happen... It would be really awesome to figure out how to get grid controllers going with Numerology....

i eat my words... akai has published the midi messages from the apc... http://www.akaipro.com/extras/product/apc40/APC40_Communications_Protocol_rev_1.pdf

now what?

[john brennan]

Just researching grid controllers I stumbled on this Im sure most of you have seen it but in case you have not .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hi_ZhN7x7KA&feature=related

[jim]

I've come up with several interesting ways that we could use grid controllers with Numerology, but most of that will require some custom programming. Probably the first grid controller on my support list is the Launchpad, given the price point. Other controllers on that list include the Monome, Livid Block and the APC, however, given that each has different MIDI implementations, support for any of them will depend on me being able to get a loaner unit.

Remember that N3 Pro will also have a sophisticated all-new control protocol for knob and/or fader based controllers as well. And OSC, and... ;)

Cheers,
Jim

[shamburglar]

Speaking practically about all this... I think what needs to happen is an easy way to be able to teach numerology the different midi messages that send the led states to the grid controller... and then be able to route the states to various functions...

perhaps a collapseable module that you could configure to represent your grid controller visually... that has a setup box to teach it the various button states?

does that make sense?

[amsonx]

Another free app for the launchpad...


http://createdigitalmusic.com/2009/11/11/novation-launchpad-osc-wrapper-makes-midi-more-readable/

[shamburglar]

Remember that N3 Pro will also have a sophisticated all-new control protocol for knob and/or fader based controllers as well. And OSC, and... ;)

Cheers,
Jim

what does this mean exactly?

[jim]

The new "Remote" feature will allow you to navigate and control most of a Numerology project using just a few controls: a few for navigation, and some for parameter editing, in conjunction with a "heads-up" display. It will work initially with knob or fader based MIDI & OSC controllers, then will be extended to handle grid controllers. The prototype implementation is already running...

Cheers,
Jim

[jhudak]

The idea for the note trigger is to have a "page" or "mode" where all buttons are setup to trigger notes, either as a big drum kit, or a multi-octave pitched keyboard (hmmm, alternate keyboard layouts, hmmm....)....

I've got a few notes on how to map the grid to the MonoNote, but I'd like to hear some other ideas before posting mine. The ChordSeq I haven't approached yet, though it does seem obvious that in one mode, columns could map to steps and rows could map to scale degrees.

Jim

hi jim, old thread, new user (me). i am a new user of numerology, and find it really easy to do simple variations on beats, note patterns etc. my original dream is to be able to enter a pattern into a sequencer via a midi keyboard (piano-like), and then be able to have the sequencer generate variations. so far, i haven't found out how to actually do it, but numerology comes closest.

i bought a launchpad a few months ago, thinking i'd be able to set up an alternate keyboard (similar to your idea above), where a random map of notes was scattered about the 8x8 grid, so as to be able to escape keyboard-thinking-composition (where the piano keyboard limits any sort of compositional accidents that might be good). i found that people were thinking about the launchpad in entirely different ways...and it was a chore for me to manually set notes to the keys on the launchpad. i also thought it would be interesting to have keys assigned to patterns...

being this thread is a couple of years old, i was wondering if you had continued thinking about the launchpad and where your ideas for it might be heading.

best,
john

[jim]

being this thread is a couple of years old, i was wondering if you had continued thinking about the launchpad and where your ideas for it might be heading.


I still see the launchpad as the best option for creating and editing patterns, but I do plan to expand support for new controllers, including other grid-based controllers, knob&fader based controllers, and the iPad. On the launchpad front, there are 4 areas I'm looking at:

- Support for more modules (specifically CV & Gate Seqs, the FaderBox and the ButtonBox).
- Support for multiple launchpads (both running independently and as a larger grid)
- Tweaks & improvements to the current mapping -- such as access to generate and evolve, mute steps, non-scalar notes, etc.
- Implementation of the "Play" page, i.e. a realtime way to enter patterns.

Specifically in regard to your interest in non-standard ways of entering notes, I would encourage you to spend some time working with the CustomScale module. Although you would currently need to use it in conjunction with a 'more normal' source of notes, you can use it to create some highly-customized (i.e. nearly, completely arbitrary) note mappings, and with the use of stack presets and routings, re-assign those scales on-the-fly.

For instance, if you have a controller around with drum pads or assignable buttons, use them to setup a chromatic or whole-note scale, feed that into the CustomScale module -- it it's own stack -- and create a series of stack presets with non-standard mappings.

Also, when you start to see releases with new Launchpad options, ping me to add support for the Keyboard module, that would be another good way to get some unusual note-generating setups going.

Another option, of course, is to use the NoteProcessor module....

Cheers,
Jim