Apple iPad + Numerology [Archive] - Five12.net -- Online Forum for the Numerology Music Sequencer

amoeba

01-28-2010, 03:19 PM

my take on the whole iPad thing... it's not a powerhouse for computing, it will probably never run AU/VST's, etc (in other words, it's not a laptop replacement) but what i do see this being killer at is a controller (think lemur for 75% off) and all the other possible connotations that come with that.

i would LOVE to see some sort of control bridge for Num on the iPad. not exactly sure how that could be done, if at all, but in some ways it would be ARD-type control.

if there will be ARD on this (which i doubt) then the request is moot.

anyway, i'm sure jim already has a few ideas in his head. i am excited to see where this whole iPad thang is going to take us...

jim

01-28-2010, 05:11 PM

what's ARD?

Jim

amoeba

01-29-2010, 02:36 PM

sorry - apple remote desktop, i.e. VNC

kodama

01-29-2010, 03:24 PM

Supposedly a lot of audio apps on the Touch platform are already audio units. But you can only run your apps' audio unit, so it ends up being a custom host to run one audio unit.

VNC/ARD control of a desktop OS totally blows. There are major issues with the touch interface not having pressure for dragging, screen updates, cursor following, etc...

Native touch apps and apps like Touch OSC seem to be the best use for these devices.
Maybe a Numerology helper app or a baby numerology that is OSC only..

But for now we have Touch OSC and it is beautiful, just needs an iPad update and OSC for N3!

jim

01-30-2010, 03:04 PM

Native touch apps and apps like Touch OSC seem to be the best use for these devices.
Maybe a Numerology helper app or a baby numerology that is OSC only..

You're getting warmer....

Jim

ToniSpeck

01-31-2010, 09:09 AM

That sound intriguing. After seeing the iPad, I could "see" a nice market for a Numerology version without the AU support, just pure sequencer for all the windows and hardware guys that don't want to buy a new mac. On top of that multitouch+well thought GUI could deliver a terrific environment. Now, does the A4 CPU deliver de goods?

kodama

01-31-2010, 12:33 PM

I bet it could handle sequencing & some simple sample playback devices & maybe a few n2 effects?

jim

01-31-2010, 02:41 PM

Now, does the A4 CPU deliver de goods?

A very good question. Other than that spec, and some nice demos, there's no public information on the chip. Clearly it has a decent GPU, but is it a single core CPU + GPU or a dual core CPU + GPU, or some sort of exotic multi-core CPU+GPU combo. Is the math fixed point like the iPhone, or floating point like a desktop chip -- that has a big effect on writing and porting music-dsp algorithms of all sorts. My guess is that it is comparable to a single core 1.5 Ghz Core chip, possibly better, with a decent GPU -- probably 2X the performance overall of an iPhone 3Gs, good enough for a few synthesis voices and simple FX, but not in the same class as even an average laptop.

There are other questions: Have they added CoreMIDI to iPhone OS 3.2? I haven't looked yet, but I'm guessing no. Without that, how to you transmit note information outside the device? OSC is an option, but what about timing, and how do you convert OSC to MIDI, and what about sync? So many questions...

What I think is very clear, based on even:rolleyes: limited experience using TouchOSC with Numerology, is that it will be fantastic controller. It can never be quite as physically satisfying as something with real knobs, faders & buttons, but the iPad (and iPhone & iPod Touch) make up for that by being infinitely configurable, and remarkably responsive. So that for now is my focus: extending the same remote control ideas (and code) I've been developing for MIDI-based controllers to the touch-screen environment.

Cheers,
Jim

jim

01-31-2010, 03:20 PM

So that for now is my focus: extending the same remote control ideas (and code) I've been developing for MIDI-based controllers to the touch-screen environment.

To be a bit more specific: The "remote controller" approach is my current focus for thinking about Numerology & iPad. In terms of my overall priorities, there are many other things that come before that.

Jim

ToniSpeck

01-31-2010, 09:35 PM

I think you're prioritizing things well.
Good luck and keep up the great work you've been putting into Numerology :)

analogic76

02-02-2010, 11:51 AM

A very good question. Other than that spec, and some nice demos, there's no public information on the chip. Clearly it has a decent GPU, but is it a single core CPU + GPU or a dual core CPU + GPU, or some sort of exotic multi-core CPU+GPU combo. Is the math fixed point like the iPhone, or floating point like a desktop chip -- that has a big effect on writing and porting music-dsp algorithms of all sorts. My guess is that it is comparable to a single core 1.5 Ghz Core chip, possibly better, with a decent GPU -- probably 2X the performance overall of an iPhone 3Gs, good enough for a few synthesis voices and simple FX, but not in the same class as even an average laptop.

There are other questions: Have they added CoreMIDI to iPhone OS 3.2? I haven't looked yet, but I'm guessing no. Without that, how to you transmit note information outside the device? OSC is an option, but what about timing, and how do you convert OSC to MIDI, and what about sync? So many questions...

What I think is very clear, based on even:rolleyes: limited experience using TouchOSC with Numerology, is that it will be fantastic controller. It can never be quite as physically satisfying as something with real knobs, faders & buttons, but the iPad (and iPhone & iPod Touch) make up for that by being infinitely configurable, and remarkably responsive. So that for now is my focus: extending the same remote control ideas (and code) I've been developing for MIDI-based controllers to the touch-screen environment.

Cheers,
Jim

Hi Jim, with this scripts,

http://monome.q3f.org/wiki/TouchOSC

i don't need to use osculator through Touch Osc and Ableton live.

I think a mini-numerology Osc based app for iPad is a great idea....

Cheers from Switzerland

Cipriano

Sjoerd

02-07-2010, 08:20 AM

Awesome developments... a few thoughts:

- Any decent user configurable remote control app on the iPad device will be a Lemur/Dexter (JazzMutant) killer. Muhahaha! :D

- For optimal latency/bandwidth/reliability I am also very much interested in tethered solutions (e.g. using the 30-pin connector to USB) instead of wireless ones.

- For wirelessly syncing multiple clocks between different Macbooks / iPhones / iPads it is possible to get an accuracy of <1 ms using bluetooth, which is good enough for my clock syncing needs at least. However, since Apple's bluetooth implementation is crippled, the iPhone (and iPad, hopefully) needs to be 'jailbroken' to use an alternative bluetooth stack (http://code.google.com/p/btstack/). Not a problem on my end, but it can be quite a barrier for many commercial developers for the platform since it reduces the size of their potential market quite a bit. Still, I feel there's a niche of tech-savy users with a high willingness to pay

- And yes indeed some iPhone apps are more or less ported AU's. One excellent example is Audiorealism's technoBox.app (http://tinyurl.com/303808909), which includes the same engine for the TB-303 emulation as their Audiorealism Bass Line 2 AU/VST plugin for OS X/Windows (and at a fraction of the price it's a steal). The bottleneck here really is CPU power, so let's hope we see much Moore of it coming. ;) (btw, best reason for *not* buying an iPad: Apple will release a better and cheaper one just a few months after you bought one).

- Regarding the A4 (hey, it's not an Audi?) I will try to pick the drunken brains of a recently deflected Apple hardware engineer. ;)

jim

02-07-2010, 12:15 PM

Awesome developments... a few thoughts:

- Any decent user configurable remote control app on the iPad device will be a Lemur/Dexter (JazzMutant) killer. Muhahaha! :D

I expect to see several such apps. The trick is to have some features that stand out in a crowd... ;)

- For optimal latency/bandwidth/reliability I am also very much interested in tethered solutions (e.g. using the 30-pin connector to USB) instead of wireless ones.

I'm not sure if that is possible -- for an OS X app to communicate w/ a Pad app via the USB/Dock connector, but that is worth looking into.

- For wirelessly syncing multiple clocks between different Macbooks / iPhones / iPads it is possible to get an accuracy of <1 ms using bluetooth, which is good enough for my clock syncing needs at least. However, since Apple's bluetooth implementation is crippled, the iPhone (and iPad, hopefully) needs to be 'jailbroken' to use an alternative bluetooth stack (http://code.google.com/p/btstack/). Not a problem on my end, but it can be quite a barrier for many commercial developers for the platform since it reduces the size of their potential market quite a bit. Still, I feel there's a niche of tech-savy users with a high willingness to pay

Perhaps this is odd, but I have no interest in jailbreaking my phone or the iPad. I have heard that bluetooth works pretty well for sync, but then one still has to write a sync algorithm, no easy task.

- And yes indeed some iPhone apps are more or less ported AU's. One excellent example is Audiorealism's technoBox.app (http://tinyurl.com/303808909), which includes the same engine for the TB-303 emulation as their Audiorealism Bass Line 2 AU/VST plugin for OS X/Windows (and at a fraction of the price it's a steal). The bottleneck here really is CPU power, so let's hope we see much Moore of it coming. ;) (btw, best reason for *not* buying an iPad: Apple will release a better and cheaper one just a few months after you bought one).

CPU will probably still be an issue for a while, but I expect it will continue to get better.

- Regarding the A4 (hey, it's not an Audi?) I will try to pick the drunken brains of a recently deflected Apple hardware engineer. ;)

I'm very curious to hear notes from that conversation!

Cheers,
Jim

Sjoerd

02-07-2010, 02:08 PM

Perhaps this is odd, but I have no interest in jailbreaking my phone or the iPad. I have heard that bluetooth works pretty well for sync, but then one still has to write a sync algorithm, no easy task.

I'm quite sure the guy behind the BTstack linked above project could help out with an algo; I'll be happy to put you in contact with him.

It is definitely not odd, Jim, jailbreakers are a minority.

One (historically) important reason for jailbreaking (that is now *much* less important, and of course also mitigated by the availability of the iPod Touch) is that iPhones were SIM-locked and only available in the US at first, then for a while only in some other countries. Another one, which unfortunately is giving jailbreaking a bad reputation, is piracy of AppStore content. I consider both these reasons irrelevant in this context.

What I do think is relevant, is that it is a computing device and that I own it, so if I want to be able to run my or your code on it, I should be able to do so without Apple's prior approval. To me that's both a moral and a pragmatic argument.

Well before Apple 'allowed' it, some of us were already making and using fun things like OSC remote controller apps on iPhoneOS (akaRemote, Mrmr). Jailbreaking was simply a requirement to be able to do so at all. It is good to see all the AppStore apps now, sure. But, while one can no longer say jailbreaking is a prerequisite to do any development at all, freedom to tinker around remains important to me. Being able to use bluetooth for obvious things like connecting your wireless (Apple!) keyboard to your iPhone still requires jailbreaking. Using the 30-pin connector for video output (of any apps other than YouTube, iPod video or the Photos slideshow) still needs jailbreaking. Protecting your privacy still requires jailbreaking (or staying clear of tens of thousands of apps; Apple has only recently announced that using geolocation primarily for targeted advertising is a reason for rejection -- not a very solid protection at all, while jailbreakers can simply opt out of the privacy infringing tracking schemes). Multitasking (backgrounding), firewalling, interoperability between apps, all still need jailbreaking. Etc...

So, I'm definitely hoping the iPad will be jailbroken asap. :)

amsonx

02-08-2010, 07:09 AM

I'm quite sure the guy behind the BTstack linked above project could help out with an algo; I'll be happy to put you in contact with him.

It is definitely not odd, Jim, jailbreakers are a minority.

One (historically) important reason for jailbreaking (that is now *much* less important, and of course also mitigated by the availability of the iPod Touch) is that iPhones were SIM-locked and only available in the US at first, then for a while only in some other countries. Another one, which unfortunately is giving jailbreaking a bad reputation, is piracy of AppStore content. I consider both these reasons irrelevant in this context.

What I do think is relevant, is that it is a computing device and that I own it, so if I want to be able to run my or your code on it, I should be able to do so without Apple's prior approval. To me that's both a moral and a pragmatic argument.

So, I'm definitely hoping the iPad will be jailbroken asap. :)

i'm totally agree this , with particular attention to this :".... is that it is a computing device and that I own it, so if I want to be able to run my or your code on it, I should be able to do so without Apple's prior approval. To me that's both a moral and a pragmatic argument"

gvh

02-09-2010, 08:49 AM

I expect to see several such apps. The trick is to have some features that stand out in a crowd... ;)

This is the trick, isn't it? More so than ever perhaps. I'm drawn to do something for the iPad (and I haven't personally crafted software in many years) but there will almost certainly be a deluge of nifty controller and composition apps for it.

sbaishya

04-13-2010, 02:12 PM

The offering for the iPad referred to above, now called LiveControl, has been updated.

Home: http://monome.q3f.org/wiki/LiveControl_TO
Video (with no sound for some reason): http://vimeo.com/10827539

It includes clip triggering and step sequencer functionality.

The iPad is looking more appealing by the day...

empirix

05-11-2010, 08:49 AM

oh big time, the Ipad is currently in the back of my mind, will be waiting on the 2nd/3rd generation ones though, imagine numerology, even jazzmutant stuff for ipad - glorious!!

Ray

05-11-2010, 04:11 PM

Thought you might like to see this Ipad seq.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYpfnV36hBA

Jens Groh

05-31-2010, 01:22 AM

I think an interesting concept would be to run the AUs remotely, like Logic does with Logic Nodes. Consider this live performance scenario: All heavy number-crunching is done on, say, a MacMini, which is the audio I/O device and thus the part that needs to be wired. The iPad is running Numerology's control part and is connected via WiFi, thus freely moveable around.
Of course, this is still not easy to do. As far as I know, Apple does not tell much about their Logic Nodes technique, only the requirements that AudioUnits must fulfill in order to let them work remotely, but not their network protocol nor even a remote-hosting example code. And, I doubt that you can run an AudioUnit's custom UI on the iPad, so we would have to manage with a generic UI. Is is then still worthwhile? Furthermore, the question whether or how Numerology can be "touch-adapted" is open.
What do you all think?

Jens Groh

05-31-2010, 02:40 PM

jim

05-31-2010, 09:51 PM

hmm... could it be that OSC (http://opensoundcontrol.org/introduction-osc) is the Magic Word? With that, "Numerology Nodes" would not even need to be "closed" - probably. But then, I'm wondering why apparently there isn't any OSC-based standard Logic-Nodes-like remote plug-in chainer yet... or is it?

Not that I'm aware of, and OSC support among plugins in general is pretty lacking, but I think the growing use of OSC on iPhone/iPad controller apps may improve that situation.

On the running-AU's-remotely front, it is certainly possible to host AU's on one computer and control them from another, but you definitely cannot use the plugin's 'native' UI in that case -- almost all AU user interfaces expect to be in the same memory space as the rendering part. So yes, you'd have to make do with a generic UI, but then many AUs have huge numbers of parameters (several hundred)...

Cheers,
Jim

Jens Groh

06-01-2010, 01:53 AM

Not that I'm aware of, and OSC support among plugins in general is pretty lacking, but I think the growing use of OSC on iPhone/iPad controller apps may improve that situation. Oh, I did not mean OSC support of a plugin itself, but of a "chainer" host, like a separated audio portion of Numerology.
On the running-AU's-remotely front, it is certainly possible to host AU's on one computer and control them from another, but you definitely cannot use the plugin's 'native' UI in that case -- almost all AU user interfaces expect to be in the same memory space as the rendering part. You certainly are right.
So yes, you'd have to make do with a generic UI, but then many AUs have huge numbers of parameters (several hundred)... Then maybe we should leave the native UI on the (not-too-)remote machine in the rack, and call the whole thing remote parameter automation. Hundreds of parameters are certainly a thing for studio work and a mouse-centric UI, not for a live situation. The main focus on an iPad app would be to do "cooler things" with parameters. And with MIDI, not to forget. A generic UI page might be offered, too, in case someone still needs to tweak a single parameter by hand.

Jens Groh

06-01-2010, 02:17 AM

Oh, I'm just seeing that the OSC controlled audio chain part looks dead-easy to build with Bidule...

xherv

06-01-2010, 11:57 AM

The Spectrasonics meister posted this a couple days ago on KVR, looks like something that could plausibly be done with Numerology for pretty interesting results.

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=288085&highlight=
http://bit.ly/bgSVLr

Just an app that turns an iPad display into a virtual desktop w/ touchscreen enabled :cool:

kodama

06-01-2010, 12:10 PM

Right now, I mostly just want to see Touch Osc easily integrate with Numerology, including sequencer position feedback (similar to the Launchpad Support). Along with my previously requested OSC/Midi control of all preset functions:

- Norm/Clear all - to 'zero' out a preset without deleting it.

- Copy preset parameters

- Paste preset parameters (so you can work on a preset, copy its parameters, then launch a new preset, and paste the parameters as a starting point)

I think moving in this direction would make iPad + N3 a sequencing dream!

:cool:

jim

06-02-2010, 10:27 AM

I haven't used it yet myself, but from what I have heard, Air Display is going to be your best option (for now) to Numerology control from the iPad. Certainly you can setup Touch OSC (and other OSC apps) via OSC learn in 3.0 to control stuff, but it cannot offer the sort of interactivity that Air Display can.

Cheers,
Jim

kodama

06-02-2010, 01:38 PM

It could be cool, but I have reservations from my testing of controlling desktop apps via a touch interface.

From the videos, it looks like it has very slow response rate.

You would also probably have to tweak Numerology a little to work well with touch interfaces.

Dragging is a pain when you have no button. Also, there is no cursor in TouchOSC for a reason!

kodama

06-03-2010, 12:35 PM

As far as possibilities for a native approach to TouchOSC/N3 integration, you should check out what these guys have done with Live:

http://vimeo.com/10827539

bonomius

06-03-2010, 02:13 PM

Hi!
I just made a short video of numerology running on the iPad:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZQ-zNO-PcM
i used an app called Air Display that turns the iPad into a second touchscreen monitor for Mac.
It's still version 1 and is a little sluggish but if you can try it!

kodama

06-03-2010, 04:35 PM

Interesting - How does it deal with clicking and dragging?

Ray

06-03-2010, 09:55 PM

kodama

07-09-2010, 02:15 PM

Hoping for N3 soon, my new iPad w/TouchOSC is lonely :(

jim

07-09-2010, 04:18 PM

Hoping for N3 soon, my new iPad w/TouchOSC is lonely :(

Just a few days...

Jim

kodama

07-09-2010, 06:09 PM

Awesome! :)

tomoe97

09-01-2010, 10:45 AM

Have a look at the following step sequencer in development for the iPad from Synthetic Bits: http://www.sonicstate.com/news/2010/09/01/sneak-preview-of-an-ipad-midi-step-sequencer/

Notice the use of the Line 6 Midi Mobilizer. Imagine the possibilities if Numerology were similarly converted into an app for iPad.

TwoToneshuzz

09-03-2010, 01:54 AM

The iPad demo link in the previous post was and eye opener. I like some aspects, but I also notice that the actually interfacing seems pretty fiddley. having to hold the surface up towards your eyes, and being very careful about picking out the right virtual buttons demands highly focused motoric use. When using an interface with actual botttons as on the launch pad, I have experienced a more fluid and relaxed user experience that gets the creative juices flowing and is downright fun. I vote for tactile interfaces for inputting notes, gates and velocity. Also for firing off presets there is something satisfying about pressing a squishy button, as opposed to tapping on a flat surface. The iPad would be great for surround panning XY pad control of synth parameters, visual pattern metronome for practice, mixer control.

But if you don't have access to a Launchpad then the iPad would do the job for inputting note data and so on. Also I feel that the cost of the iPad unit is rather high for using it for a function that it might not be all that well suited for in the long run. I vote for keyboards, pedals switches and knobs combined with touchscreens connected directly to a powerful computer for studio use and perhaps an iPad for doing brainstorming for production away from the studio. Or presenting finished projects to contacts/customers like a portable mini studio where pre set-up tracks could be adjusted and such. Serious creative work demands tools that are comfortable to use, as you work intensivly over many hours. I think a way to think of the iPad is as an IdeaPad. The studio is the production interface and demands more specific tools than the generalist type Touch screen interface.

Thinking out loud

Wade